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| DPCrisp wrote: | | We have yet to get to the bottom of this Druidical penchant for land-water interfaces. |
Can someone look up mere and mir words? I think you'll find purity and also boundary meanings that fit with the surface of the water meanings, plus mirror, miracle, mother, merriment/mirth... words that seem relevant to this question of interfacing this world to the other(s).
Merde = (m)earth? Something to do with mother? |
Here's some words:
Miranda: to be admired.
mirk: murk
Miriam: Old Testament equivalent of Mary - no consensus on meaning
mire
mirage
Meredith: Welsh (Maredudd), great lord or sea lord.
meresman: An officer who ascertains meres or boundaries.
merestead: The land within the boundaries of a farm; a farmstead or farm
merestone: an old term for a landmark that consisted of a pile of stones surmounted by an upright slab
merest: a small pond of standing water
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| Can someone look up mere and mir words? I think you'll find purity and also boundary meanings.. ... words that seem relevant to this question of interfacing this world to the other(s). |
Meryw/merywen is Welsh for juniper (cf. myrrh).
| Miriam: Old Testament equivalent of Mary - no consensus on meaning |
The 'mar' in Mary is thought to be bitter, hence the association with sea i.e. salt water (lots of discussion on the salt thread about meanings therein). There are metaphorical links with rebelliousness, disobedience and so forth; Miriam broken down is 'bitter sea', yam is sea in Hebrew (the sea has to be tamed). Could be that merry itself was a 'rebellious' word thinking about topsy-turvy festivals. And horses.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| DPCrisp wrote: | | Is Anglesey on record as �ngulls Ey? Even if it is, it doesn't help much since the meaning can not be distinguished from Angle. |
Angle is similar to 'uncle'. Alfred Watkins kept referring to 'Dodmen', the people who surveyed ley lines and were responsible, he thought, for laying them out by taking sightings from hill tops and so on. Dod in Hebrew means uncle; when I checked it I found that 'dod' not only means beloved, uncle but also jar, pot and moreover David is written the same way. This is characteristic of 'vav' which is both vowel and consonant, like an 'o' and a 'v'. (Odd-ish combination of meanings; maybe the jar or pot has a funerary connection. Dod and tot are both death-like.)
It's always struck me that David, a Hebrew 'royal' name, is one of the most Welsh of Welsh names. Maybe David was a Watkins-style Dodman. His greatest feat? Slaying Goliath with a carefully aimed stone in a sling. Come to think of it, the Welsh were renowned for their skill with bows and arrow, not sure about slings.
Can't make head nor tail of the etymology of uncle but angles play such a crucial part in surveying that I suspect there may well be a connection.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| moreover David is written the same way. This is characteristic of 'vav' which is both vowel and consonant, like an 'o' and a 'v'. |
Interesting. U = V is plain enough in the Latin alphabet, but I didn't know there was an equivalent in Hebrew {O = U, of course}; and for less than obvious reasons.
So it's a bit of a toss-up deciding whether "v" means V or U in Latin and 'mistakes' have been made: V is an intruder, so to speak, in avian and jovial, but we'd be hard-pressed to retrain anybody. So is David "David" or "Dauid/Daoid/Dowd/..."?
The Arabs seem to think the latter: Dawud/Dawood for David is equally ambiguous, but Daud is surely all vowel.
SurnameDB.com hasn't noticed and just prolongs the agony:
Recorded in several spelling forms including O'Dowd, Dowd, Dood, Doody, Dowda and Duddy, this ancient name is Irish. It derives from the pre 10th century Gaelic O'Dubhda. The prefix "O" indicates "male descendant of", plus the personal name Dubhda. This is from the word "dubh" meaning black, and probably referred to a chief with particularly dark hair or complexion. Is BH ever not V in Irish? ('Course, letter combinations slipping in and out of the written record are proof that sounds slip in and out of words just as easily. Not.)
Davis... is a patronymic form of the male given name David, itself coming from the Hebrew "Dodaveha" meaning "Beloved of Jehovah". Any connexion between dark (Celts) and Beloved of Jehova? (Any connexion between the Celts and the Middle East?) Any chance that these etymologies are correct in any way?
Davis = David's = David's son, innit. Davis, Jones, Evans... -S is just the Welsh equivalent of O'-, Mac-, -son/sen, -ov/-ovitch, -escu... Looks like -Y is just another (English?) variation: -Y makes an adjective, "like, or something to do with...": Dowdy, Doody, Duddy = like or to do with David = David's son -- daughter, maybe.
| Dod and tot are both death-like. |
Like
dote: decay in wood.
dod: [Gael. = peevishness.] a fit of ill humour, sulks, esp. in take the dods.
dotard: tree that has lost its branches, esp. through age or decay.
dote, dotard, doter: foolish or weak-minded person... be silly or deranged... foolishly affectionate
you mean?
Dull and dolt are similar, I expect: all denoting the negative side of aging.
Not sure about dote, dotate, dotation: endowment. (Old) people needing looking after, perhaps.
As for
dodman: [Origin unkn.] a snail,
leaving a trail around the countryside is surely not what Watkins had in mind. Was it? Maybe a double entendre with dod: rounded summit or eminence, esp. one that is a lower summit or shoulder of a hill.
Snails and hills share their rounded tops ("origin unknown" indeed) with dod: make the top of (something) blunt, rounded, or bare; shave the head of; lop (a tree); dehorn (an animal).
Hang on. Knock the top off something and look after people? That's David becoming king, isn't it? Does David revitalise or replace a decrepit old regime?
Dow in dowry = dau in David?
| Come to think of it, the Welsh were renowned for their skill with bows and arrow, not sure about slings. |
Worth pursuing that one. Archers are two-a-penny: Beaker People, Kentaurs... but slingstones are pretty ubiquitous at the hillforts, I think. Dunno what orthodoxy says about them, but they might give some indication, where there are signs of violence, whether it was Celt-on-Celt or something else.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| Can't make head nor tail of the etymology of uncle but angles play such a crucial part in surveying that I suspect there may well be a connection. |
uncle: AN uncle, (O)Fr. oncle f. late L aunculus alt. of avunculus maternal uncle.
-culus is a diminutive, as is -le or -cle, so uncle is a little/minor/subordinate "un". Oh yes:
avuncular: f. L [avunculus maternal uncle, dim. of avus grandfather
a sub-grandfather.
Again, the V is a vowel and aunculus is an alternative spelling of avunculus, not an altered pronunciation of it. (Unless the Latins were thoroughly confused by all this, too.)
Aunt, instead of being a short hop -- "aun-ed" or "aun-ette" or something -- is given a long ride:
aunt: AN aunte, OFr. ante (mod. tante) f. L amita.
If we ignore the -us in avus, grandfather, then it's just "au", but already we have an -n on there: one of those indistinct sounds rounding it off, like M, R, L. And, hey presto:
aiel, aile, ayle: [OFr. aiol, aiuel (mod. aieul) f. Proto-Romance dim. of L avus grandfather.] a grandfather.
Grandfather embodies the wisdom and support of the ancestors {auntie = ante = before!}:
adolescent, alible, alimentary, alimony, alms/almose/almous/awmous, altricial, alumnus, coalesce, old, auld, elder...: alere nourish.
awe: [OE ege = Goth. agis fear, f. Gmc.; replaced in ME by forms cognate w. ON agi.] ...reverential fear or wonder... G = U, but I've no idea what "Germanic ege/agis replaced by forms of (Germanic) ON agi" is supposed to mean.
alma, almah, alme: [Arab. alima (colloq.) singer, orig. (fem. adj.) brained, learned, f. alima know.] Any of a class of Egyptian singing- and dancing-girls who entertain at festivals and act as mourners.
Alma Mater: L = bounteous mother, a title given to various Roman goddesses, esp. Ceres and Cybele.
aura: Gk = breath, breeze.
aural: ear
aurum: gold
all... one... Om... with a good measure of mensuration, too:
aune, ulna, ell, aunage, aulnage, alnage: measuring (cloth)
auncel: [AN, earlier aunser, = AL auncella, a(u)nser of unkn. origin.] A kind of balance and weight; a steelyard. Awl -- "origin unknown", natch -- appears to span both camps: earliest references are to piercing of the ears -- which is a rite of passage, sign or maturity and wisdom, innit? -- but it sure looks like a geometer's tool.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| This is from the word "dubh" meaning black, and probably referred to a chief with particularly dark hair or complexion. |
Interesting that chief and dark are equated. 'Dov' in Hebrew means bear which might also equate might/power and black/dark brown (a throw-back to Caucasus roots maybe, bears aren't indigenous to the ME far as I'm aware).
| Any connexion between dark (Celts) and Beloved of Jehova? |
The same word in Hebrew means beloved (doted on) and uncle apparently. In Welsh anwyll ('anvil'?) means 'beloved', dark is tywyll and darkness gwyll; can't see a link, wyll according to the dictionary means owl/ghost/fiend. Deep dark water as in a well? {Wylli, if such a word exists, reminds me of High Willie, the highest hill on Dartmoor.} Sort of reminiscent of grim which is supposed to mean fierce, savage, i.e. grim, and keeps cropping up in important places like ditches, hills, settlements.
dodman: [Origin unkn.] a snail,
leaving a trail around the countryside is surely not what Watkins had in mind. Was it? Maybe a double entendre with dod: rounded summit or eminence, esp. one that is a lower summit or shoulder of a hill. |
Reminds me of a dowser. Forked twigs like the horns on a snail. Leaving a trail around the countryside is precisely what surveyors set out to do surely. Slowly but surely.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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aune, ulna, ell, aunage, aulnage, alnage: measuring (cloth)
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For some reason that was never explained Watkins considered 'Aune' to be particularly important in place-names. In France aune was used as a term of general measurement it seems, much as the English yardstick. Ell, as we've discussed, is significant, thinking of right angles. Keep coming back to angles. {Aune is apparently connected to "chaste" and "lamb", in France anyway}.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| wyll according to the dictionary means owl/ghost/fiend. |
For got to include owl as a grandfather word.
| Sort of reminiscent of grim which is supposed to mean fierce, savage, i.e. grim, and keeps cropping up in important places like ditches, hills, settlements. |
Grim is Odin in a now-seen-as-negative guise, the Reaper, equivalent to the Devil, the alternative to Giant's Wossname for some awe inspiring feature in the landscape: Devil's Doodah.
Od(in) another grandfather word? (D = R)
| Aune is apparently connected to "chaste" and "lamb", in France anyway. |
The Chaste Lamb being measured (self-disciplined) or having something to do with measurement (such as being a carpenter/builder)? Nah, doesn't ring any bells.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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There may be a sense of marking time as well as measuring if uncle/inch and aunt/awl are anything to go by. Three generations are about as far back as anyone can remember. Everything was different in grandfather's day. [As kids we used to call unrelated parents' friends 'uncle' and 'aunt' turning them into honorary relatives and strengthening ties, similar to grandparents I suppose as we didn't have any living ones.]
| Grim is Odin in a now-seen-as-negative guise, the Reaper, equivalent to the Devil, the alternative to Giant's Wossname for some awe inspiring feature in the landscape: Devil's Doodah. |
I wonder why important sites have to be made negative. It's like the question of why dragons had to be defeated/killed. Can't just be that ancient sites were considered un-Christian since really imposing, important monuments like Stonehenge and Avebury weren't demonised, apart from some lurid imaginings like 'Slaughter Stone' and the like.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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This book I'm reading on ley lines is talking about Geisterwege (German for ghost paths, akin to Irish fairy roads), lot of folklore of course including this remark:
| The souls of the dead fly close to the ground and will not tolerate any obstructions that stand higher than an ell (this is a traditional unit of measure derved from the distance between the elbow and the fingertips). |
Naturally these straight paths are accompanied by dire warnings about not impeding the flight of spirits and so forth, though the author, an editor of the Ley Hunter mag and bogged down in earth mysteries, doesn't appear to have reached the obvious conclusion. Obstructions on a highway still carry a heavy penalty though not of the supernatural kind.
{Incidentally the German for corpse is leichen very similar to lyke as in Lyke Way. I wonder if it's related to lichen which etymonline says comes from Greek leichen meaning 'to lick' which is a bit bizarre. Lichen grows on tombstones or ancient stones generally.}
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Grim is Odin in a now-seen-as-negative guise, the Reaper, equivalent to the Devil, the alternative to Giant's Wossname for some awe inspiring feature in the landscape: Devil's Doodah.
Od(in) another grandfather word? (D = R) |
Odin is associated with spirit paths/ley lines in the guise of a huntsman with spectral dogs who lays waste to the countryside, thus ensuring travellers get out of the way especially on important occasions like All Hallows Eve.
The spectral dogs are interesting; wonder if Cornwall's black dogs have any bearing. The Black Dogs of the south west, mainly Devon and Somerset, which roam the ancient tracks are said to dislike running water, disappearing in a flash of light when they cross it. I bet they do...running water in the south west usually denotes bogs.
I wonder if travellers used dogs as guide dogs in places like Bodmin Moor and Dartmoor, renowned for mires. When did sailors get to be called sea dogs? Plenty of sailors would've used the route that linked north and south Devon to avoid sailing all round the south west peninsula.
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Hatty wrote:
It's always struck me that David, a Hebrew 'royal' name, is one of the most Welsh of Welsh names. Maybe David was a Watkins-style Dodman. His greatest feat? Slaying Goliath with a carefully aimed stone in a sling. Come to think of it, the Welsh were renowned for their skill with bows and arrow, not sure about slings. |
David = Druid = Deru wit, truo wit = Received wisdom, received ultimate knowledge, collective (life) conscious; knowledge of the inner orb of light -- ultimate truth, ultimate wisdom The inner orb of light is experienced via NDE (near death experience).
David and Goliath is probably metaphor for wisdom over strength.
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Hatty wrote:
There's a "mountain" on Anglesey called Parys (Paris?) Mon, aka Myndd Parys, where copper is mined and excavations have uncovered substratum debris dating back to the early Bronze Age, as you said.
(could mon be 'mine' rather than 'mountain'?) |
Parisii -- Britain - Celt
Parisii -- France - Celt
Pharisee -- Israel
pyramid
1552 (earlier in L. form piramis, 1398), from Fr. pyramide (O.Fr. piramide, 12c.), from L. pyramides, pl. of pyramis "one of the pyramids of Egypt," from Gk. pyramis (pl. pyramides), apparently an alteration of Egyptian pimar "pyramid."
Who sold the ore to make the tools to carve the stone blocks?
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Rocky wrote: | | Merde = (m)earth? Something to do with mother? |
Also: Mirror.
I am tempted to think the word refers to a feminized reflection of the Sun. The ocean reflects the sky.
Ma = Feminine (for reasons I will not go into at this time).
Ra = Sun ?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| wizard wrote: | | The inner orb of light is experienced via NDE (near death experience). |
An archaeologist working for the BBC no less wondered if those mysterious cup and ring marks on rock faces were depicting a kind of light-at-the-end-of-a-tunnel experience brought about by hallucinogenic substances. She seems to base her conclusion on the fact that cup and ring marks occur all over the world and people who take mind-altering drugs report exactly the same visions.
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