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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Komorikid wrote: | Rhesos > Rhee
Karesos > Karesdic
Rhodios > Roding
Granicos > Granta
Aisepos > Ise
Kaustros > Caister
Axios > Exe
Temese > Temes (Thames) |
What you have to show is that similar matchups are not possible for a geographical location of similar size. Why don't you do this? Why don't you attempt it?
What about all the place names that exist on the map but are unaccounted for in the text? You've got a very large sample size from which you can pick and choose the names that match. You could do the same thing anywhere. Give it a try in Wisconsin.
And finally, even if you are right (which I see no reason to believe as yet), the only thing you will have demontrated is that the epic poem in question set the locale of the "Trojan War" in England. We've no reason to believe the author of said poem knew what the hell he was talking about.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Komorikid wrote: | I'll start with the piece of evidence that set me off on this course.
Urnfield Culture. 1300 -700BC |
Another date to set your watch by.
Right away you've lost me. Don't quote dates to me or I just give up. They are all meaningless.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | We've certainly built threads on evidence as wispy as this. However the difference in this case is that it wouldn't be one of our threads, would it? Just Wilken's. |
Yes. Another reason it bugs me.
Kom. At least develop your own independent argument. Throw his book away then try to prove the hypothesis using a completely independent tack. If there's truth to it, it will be possible to do so.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Order! Order!
Let's not have this descend into a slanging match or a sceptfest.
Rather than re-opening Where Troy Once Stood from the beginning, let's just say Wilkens makes a strong case for the events of the Iliad (and the Odyssey) being set in western Europe and the Atlantic. He's spent decades poring over the geography and concluded that the rivers in the area of Troy, listed by KomoriDude, are to be found together only in south-eastern England. There is more to the circumstances of his evidence than the similarities of some names. (I thought you guys might have gleaned this much from previous discussions.) If anyone wants to challenge his findings, for instance by showing some equally satisfying candidates, please go ahead. In another thread.
There is also a theory that the Trojan War took place on the shores of the Baltic, so Wilkens has at least one fight to win before he can be ruled firmly into the frame of the Beaker question. Still, accepting his case provisionally, Komori might like to check the correspondences between Wilkens and the Beaker distribution.
If there are significant differences between the dates and styles of early Bronze Age Beaker stuff and Late Bronze Age Trojan/Achaean stuff, then we can count Wilkens out of this one. But if the opposite, then the opposite.
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admin
Librarian
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| If anyone wants to challenge his findings, for instance by showing some equally satisfying candidates, please go ahead. In another thread. |
Exactement. Under "History", you'll find The Troy Game.
And, while we're not on the subject, ongoing discussions on genetics could be transferred to "Life Sciences", which has been somewhat neglected latterly.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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Dan
There are two things about your map I find personally interesting. The first is the division between the Beaker areas of Britain and the non Beaker areas fall into my two ethnic groups in Britain theory. The Ireland, Cornwall, Wales and West Scotland fall into the Rh- inhabitants - my mysterious Not Celts. It also corresponds with the VSO language this same group spoke and still speak today - The Not Celtic language group.
The other coincidence is that the areas parallel Iman Wilken's distribution of nations in Where Troy Once Stood. And they are all accessible by sailing vessels the main form of transport at the time.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| Urnfield Culture. 1300 -700BC |
This is interesting for all the "wrong" reasons i.e. the History of Archaeology once again turns out to be a more fruitful study than the History of Ancient Man.
I had not known that "Beakerism" was a British coinage, and that is surely significant. The clear impression I had always gained was that the Beakers were a Continental European culture discovered by Continental European archaeologists but Komoro indicates that this is not the case.
Why is this important? Well, European archaeology (indeed, world archaeology) is/was dominated by English public-school types whose brains were completely captive to the Classical School i.e. everything in Britain (indeed, the world) came out of the Mesopotamia/Egypt/Greece/Rome template and that consequently Britain oscillates back and forth between mud huts and whatever the Mediterranean uberpowers cared to give us.
Just to avoid charges of nationalism, I hasten to point out that this "Classical" Syndrome effects the whole of the non-Mediterranean world so that if, say, Bulgaria turns up something nifty and early, it will be either ignored or assigned to cultural transmission from the usual sources. Most of what we call Alternative History is in fact the efforts of non-academics to overcome this rather loopy view of what was really going on.
Hence, when, in Komoro's words
| a number of very rich grave goods under round barrows in Southern Britain |
are discovered, British archaeologists do not cry, "Wow! Lookee here! The Brits were doing some groovy things" they say "Wow! Lookee here! The Brits have been importing some groovy things, let's go look for where they came from."
And it's Mycenae or La Tene or Cro-Magnon or Out of Africa. Always some damn place far away. That's one of the reasons for British dominance of world archaeology, we're un-nationalistic to a fault.
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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The interesting thing about the grave goods is that it would have been impossible for the jewelry or pottery to be of Mycen'ean origin as this early Greek civilization was not in evidence until 1600-1200BC by normal reckoning and 1000-800BC by Velikovsky corrected data. Therefore Beaker art was a precursor to Greek style and not the other way around. [This adds another notch in the theory by Iman Wilken that ancient Britain and Coastal North Atlantic culture preceded the Greeks and was in fact the precursor to Greek civilization. ]
What was the battle that took place in the Fenlands ca 2500-2100 BC (real time) that could produce so much physical evidence of a Bronze Age conflict that has yet to be explained by British Archaeology? It would appear that Britain's (REAL) Bronze Age was prior to all of Eastern Mediterranean's Bronze Age.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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Is it fair, as a sweeping generalisation, to say
(1) dolicocephalic, long-headed = gracile, Mediterranean type
while
(2) brachycephalic, round-headed = robust, northen European type?
And, in Britain,
(3) neolithic long-barrow remains = dolicocephalic
while
(4) Bronze Age round-barrow remains = brachycephalic?
Do these not simply imply the earliest, essentially megalithic tombs were occupied by Celts, let's say the WELSH; while the Beaker Folk, in their round barrows, were the ENGLISH?
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| What was the battle that took place in the Fenlands ca 2500-2100 BC (real time) that could produce so much physical evidence of a Bronze Age conflict that has yet to be explained by British Archaeology? It would appear that Britain's (REAL) Bronze Age was prior to all of Eastern Mediterranean's Bronze Age. |
Not with you, KomoriFella. Please lay out the dates for British and Eastern Mediterranean Bronze Ages, coz "ca 2500-2100 BC" is not ringing the right bells. Do weapons and other articles of bronze always appear at the same time?
How can we be sure East Anglian spear points were not (votive) offerings? What else was found and is it compatible with Beaker stuff?
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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| What was the battle that took place in the Fenlands ca 2500-2100 BC (real time) that could produce so much physical evidence of a Bronze Age conflict that has yet to be explained by British Archaeology? It would appear that Britain's (REAL) Bronze Age was prior to all of Eastern Mediterranean's Bronze Age. |
This was an assumption on my part using Velikovsky's chronology. It is completely untrue as is Velikovsky's dating accuracy.
After reading Thucydides I realised that the entire Greek Dark Ages never existed. It's not that it needed to be slid back or forward to accord with whoever's chronology, it never existed at all.
The entire concept of a Greek Dark Age is based solely on the Homeric Sagas and their incongruity with Classic Greek history. Ancient scholars couldn't come to grips with Homer's 'history' and so the Classic writers consigned Homer to Myth and Legend.
BUT THEY NEVER CONSIDERED THE STORY WAS NOT GREEK.
Modern scholars have taken this misconception and compounded it further because of two infamous discoveries both by Heinrich Schliemann; Troy in Turkey and Mycenae in Greece.
This has led to the confusion today not only of the Homeric Sagas but this mysterious period known as the Greek Dark Ages.
If we remove Homer from Greece and place it in its true setting we can then discount Schliemann's discoveries as bogus and place the real founding of Greece exactly where Thucydides and other Classic writers claim, the 8-7 Century BC.
The Trojan War happened somewhere else and again Thucydides and others got the timeline right but the location wrong. The five hundred missing years are not missing at all. Hellas was founded by Pelasgians in the 7-8 Century BC who weren't Greek. The Greek mainland and Islands before this time were sparsely populated by various people again as Thucydides and others testify and none of the great cities and their populations listed in depth by Homer can be found; something that the Classic writers and the archaeological record can not explain (ergo Dark Age).
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Komorikid
In: Gold Coast, Australia
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| How can we be sure East Anglian spear points were not (votive) offerings? What else was found and is it compatible with Beaker stuff? |
This extract is from the Fenlands Survey and British Archoelogy (my italics)
The idea that metal objects were thrown into rivers and pools in the Bronze Age for ritual or votive reasons - an idea firmly established among scholars of the period - has been challenged by a new study of Bronze Age metal deposits in East Anglia.
East Anglia has one of the richest concentrations of Bronze Age metal in the country. But according to the study, part of an unpublished PhD thesis by Colin Pendleton, Suffolk's Sites and Monuments Record Officer, the vast majority of metal finds seem to have been deposited on dry land.
Over 11,000 objects of Bronze Age metalwork have been found in Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire, but - excluding material from the Fens - only 72 of them were found in water, the study says. Of these, seven or eight came from modern watercourses, and most of the rest were widely scattered, with only one slight concentration of 15 finds on the River Little Ouse. The concentration was closely associated with a dry-land settlement scatter that had somehow found its way into the water.
The large quantity of material from the Fens, generally assumed to have been deposited in water, was mostly found on subsoils below the Fenland peat rather than in the peat, and was therefore deposited before the Fens became a watery landscape, the study says
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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| The idea that metal objects were thrown into rivers and pools in the Bronze Age for ritual or votive reasons - an idea firmly established among scholars of the period - has been challenged by a new study of Bronze Age metal deposits in East Anglia. |
I think I'd seen this before -- and forgotten about it. It sounds fair enough.
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DPCrisp
In: Bedfordshire
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This whole Greek Dark Ages thing seems a mighty good wheeze, worthy of its own thread, but does the Beaker question depend on solving that one first?
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Duncan
In: Yorkshire
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Phew! A couple of weeks working away and I come back to this! The Trojan War is now fought in Britain, not in Turkey! The Beaker People are the Mycenaeans and the Celts/Welsh are the Trojans? Reality check this people, from Project Troia's Chief Archaeologist: http://www.archaeology.org/0405/etc/troy.html
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