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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You know what we think about anything with a Cotton hallmark. The blurb's reference to Alfred's resettlement of London is hilarious. What was it, injun territory?
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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I watched an internet video today, courtesy of my silicon servant who has worked me out so she serves me up a medley of Roman stuff. Today's offering: "why the Romans did not invade Ireland"
It was entirely orthodox, ie they, the Romans, could have done, it would have been useful, they even had a mysterious Irish King willing to assist etc etc etc but, err, never got round to it as were distracted fighting battles elsewhere.
Still, ends with a real cliffhanger "when at the time of writing, 70% of the Irish identify as Roman catholic, we might say the Romans conquered Ireland not with swords but with ideas".......
Wow! I desperately looked for Part 2 but alas....
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Everyone uses religion as a badge of identity and the British Isles are a good test bed.
* The English chose Anglicanism to differentiate themselves from Europeans
But recusant Catholicism in north and west to differentiate themselves from London
* Scotland stayed with Calvinism to differentiate themselves from the English
But Catholic in the highlands and islands to differentiate Gaelic Scots from Lallan Scots
* The Irish stuck with Catholicism to differentiate themselves from the English
But the Scots stayed Calvinist in Ulster to differentiate themselves from the English in Dublin
* The Welsh had Anglicanism thrust upon them
But went 'chapel' when it was safe to do so.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Why did the Romans badge themselves as Christians?
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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If you're talking about the Ancient Romans, they wouldn't have heard of Christianity but if you're talking about Christians, who couldn't badge themselves by their official HQ, Jerusalem, on account of it being occupied by Muslims, they badged themselves on the two capitals of the Roman Empire, Rome and Constantinople.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | | If you're talking about the Ancient Romans, they wouldn't have heard of Christianity but if you're talking about Christians, who couldn't badge themselves by their official HQ, Jerusalem, on account of it being occupied by Muslims, they badged themselves on the two capitals of the Roman Empire, Rome and Constantinople. |
So folks thought it would be a neat idea to adopt a pacifist, mystery religion, HQ Middle East, and transform it into a state imperial religion centred on Rome, Constantinople, as they didn't want to become Muslims (or presumably Jews), and had more than enough polytheism, old gods etc?
That's a bit of a blow for Wiley as I was assuming Christianity must be a western religion.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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You're right to be nicely scathing. it's not what would be called 'firmed up'.
| So folks thought it would be a neat idea to adopt a pacifist, mystery religion, HQ Middle East, |
They were adopting a version of Islam.
| and transform it into a state imperial religion centred on Rome, Constantinople |
With the chief difference being, in contrast to Islam which has no laid down hierarchies, that it was to be a state imperial religion based on the Roman model.
| as they didn't want to become Muslims (or presumably Jews) |
Religions are rarely home grown. They work better if they are imported from exotic foreign parts.
| and had more than enough polytheism, old gods etc? |
That was the point. They weren't working. It had to be a monotheistic new religion.
| That's a bit of a blow for Wiley as I was assuming Christianity must be a western religion. |
It is, entirely.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| Mick Harper wrote: | Everyone uses religion as a badge of identity and the British Isles are a good test bed.
* The English chose Anglicanism to differentiate themselves from Europeans
But recusant Catholicism in north and west to differentiate themselves from London
* Scotland stayed with Calvinism to differentiate themselves from the English
But Catholic in the highlands and islands to differentiate Gaelic Scots from Lallan Scots
* The Irish stuck with Catholicism to differentiate themselves from the English
But the Scots stayed Calvinist in Ulster to differentiate themselves from the English in Dublin
* The Welsh had Anglicanism thrust upon them
But went 'chapel' when it was safe to do so. |
According to Wiley the Romans establishd control of the Irish Sea zone and so you get Roman Catholics both sides of the water.
| Scholars have long recognized that the term �Celtic Church� is simply inappropriate to describe Christianity among Celtic-speaking peoples, since this would imply a notion of a self-identifying unity that did not exist.[3] As Patrick Wormald has explained, �One of the common misconceptions is that there was a �Roman Church� to which the �Celtic� was nationally opposed.�[4] Celtic-speaking areas were part of Latin Christendom as a whole, wherein a significant degree of liturgical and structural variation existed, along with a collective veneration of the Bishop of Rome that was no less intense in Celtic areas.[5] |
Celtic Church did not exist. What you had was veneration of Rome, throughout the Irish sea Zone.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| According to Wiley the Romans establishd control of the Irish Sea zone and so you get Roman Catholics both sides of the water. |
Obviously this is antithetical to my view. Christianity arrived in England under the Normans and arrived in Ireland when the Anglo-Normans invaded Ireland.
| Celtic Church did not exist. |
| What you had was veneration of Rome, throughout the Irish sea Zone. |
Nobody venerated Rome. You paid your dues to HQ.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Yes, that's the difference, I have them fully signed up for deified emperors. Rome is the origin City. This state religion evolves into Christianity. Augustus is replaced by Jesus, round about Crusades.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| This state religion evolves into Christianity. |
True, Christianity is a state religion but how you get from emperor-worship and polytheism to Jesus-worship and (theoretically) monotheism seems too long a stretch. I prefer modified Islam plus hierarchies.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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It's where the stratigraphy, coin evidence and calendars takes me.
Oh hang on, I might be fitting them all in.
Jesu.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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| The Celtic tonsure, the exact shape of which is unclear from the sources, but in some way involved shaving the head from ear to ear.[10] The shape may have been semicircular, arcing forward from a line between the ears, but another popular suggestion, less borne out in the sources, proposes that the entire forehead was shaved back to the ears.[11] More recently a triangular shape, with one point at the front of the head going back to a line between the ears, has been suggested.[10] The Celtic tonsure was worn in Ireland and Great Britain and was connected to the distinct set of practices known as Celtic Christianity.[12] It was opposed by the Roman tradition, but many adherents to the Celtic tradition continued to maintain the old way well into the 8th and 9th centuries.[13] Some sources have also suggested links between this tonsure and that worn by druids in the Pre-Roman Iron Age.[14][15] |
Interpretaion: It is distinct, we can't say what it is, so it was based on a proto-tonsure.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Does anyone know how a tonsure works? Doesn't stubble then hair just start growing back immediately?
Late idea: does it have anything to do with male pattern baldness in some way? Celibacy is after all involved somewhere along the line and women stopped sleeping with me after I got mine. So no change there.
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Don't know, I thought all Christian monks had this haircut regardless of age so, yes, it would grow back. It don't look good, which is presumably the point, it's a leaving behind of the individual, and short-lived fashions, and acceptance of a timeless, collective way of life, including simple uniform robes and hairstyle.
But why don't they shave off the lot like Buddhists?
Why leave the crown (painful crown of thorns?) bit?
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