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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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| wizard wrote: | Parisii -- Britain - Celt
Parisii -- France - Celt
Pharisee -- Israel |
They're all the same Aryan family so I read. As are the Druids and the Magi and the Persians. Not so much an etymological link though as a cultural, or religious if you prefer, homogeneity in what little is known.
| Who sold the ore to make the tools to carve the stone blocks? |
You'd need the expertise first. Where did Welsh miners on say Mons Parys learn their skill?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Dan wrote: | Can someone look up mere and mir words? I think you'll find purity and also boundary meanings that fit with the surface of the water meanings |
A mere as in lake can come and go depending on the season whereas a mere or maer is a boundary mark which by its very nature has to be fixed. Maybe a mere is more of a barrier (a mur) with marshy connotations whereas a lake or loch is permanent.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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I urge you to consider the notion that there were never any "Druids" in Britain. If you see similarities between Druids and Magi, it may be because the Druids are historically and geographically misplaced Magi.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Another folk myth, or Victorian fantasy, dispensed with. I've always felt slightly uncomfortable whenever the word Druid appears and immediately chastised myself. Too little known about them and what little there is is too lurid.
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Dan wrote: | Can someone look up mere and mir words? I think you'll find purity and also boundary meanings that fit with the surface of the water meanings |
Norse Mythology - Mimir's well? A metaphoric well of wisdom!
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Ishmael wrote:
I urge you to consider the notion that there were never any "Druids" in Britain. If you see similarities between Druids and Magi, it may be because the Druids are historically and geographically misplaced Magi. |
May be? Or, could they be different sects, clan names, regional dialect or accent derivation or spelling variants of the same.
For example; Old Irish draoiocht (druid) -- O.E. treo hwit = drao iocht = druid
Iocht is cognate with (hwyt, wyrd, wit, wise, white);
Iocht with Aodh ( iocht), Yehuda (Judha), Iutae (Jute), Norse Jaetun, Egypt Aten.
Iocht - EE-ocht -Y-ocht - J-ocht - G-oght - Goth - Goot - Good - God.
Aodh, is a sun god and an aspect of the god Dagda (dada?) who was regarded as 'the father of all' and source of ultimate knowledge. Cognate Gk. eidos "form, shape, kind," also "course of action," "to see/know the way."
A son of Aodha is MacAodha -- Mackie - Magi
Mackie is one of many Anglicised forms of the Gaelic name "Mac (son of ) Aodha", a patronymic form of the name "Aodh" = 'light', 'bright' and 'fire' etc. White, Wit, Wise, Light, Bright, Fire all allude to enlightenment, an aspect and physical manifestation of the inner light, the father of all.
By adding Bre, a Celtic pre-fix meaning, hill, pinnacle, high, noble etc., forming:
Bre-Iocht = Brit
O.E. Breoton = Britain
O.E. Bryten = Britain
B and P are derivation.
P celtic
Pre-Iocht = Pret anni
Pre-Iocht = Pict
Q = C Celtic
Cre-Iocht = Cruit hni
Cre-eax = Crist - Cyrst = Cross
Possibly C sounded as S - Iocht - Sachs ain
Brittons, Druids, Magi and early Christians (Cruithni?), are possibly linguistic and religio/cultural variations of the same.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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Mimir was the Rememberer. Wisdom or intelligence are close associates of memory especially in a society where learning depends on oral transmission.
Mimir was said to drink mead every morning. Wiki describes mead as honey-wine with a bitter beer-like flavour due to the hops (but we know better). Good grief, next they'll be telling us that mental agility is down to a morning cup of mead. Oh, apparently Levi-Strauss already did.
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Hatty wrote:
Wisdom or intelligence are close associates of memory especially in a society where learning depends on oral transmission. |
Yes I suppose hard lessons can be learned via oral transmission, particularly after drinking mead!
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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If we remove the Druids from British history, what effect does it have on what remains?
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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From what we've discussed about the significance of megalithic locations, it is clear that the landscape did not become what it is by accident but by design. (The interpretation of the landscape as part of the general culture is something even archaeologists recognise as fact.) Whether 'Druids' were responsible for the design is open to debate but someone was in charge. 'Celtic' elites perhaps.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| Hatty wrote: | | Whether 'Druids' were responsible for the design is open to debate but someone was in charge. 'Celtic' elites perhaps. |
Orthodox archeologists deny the Druids agency in the erection of the monoliths.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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The gneral AE position, correct me if I have it wrong, is as follows:
Orthodoxy regards Druids as a strictly historical phenomenon ie because they are mentioned by Classical sources the Druids must have existed strictly during Classical times (this is because of the historical paradigm that you are not permitted to go beyond contemporaneous evidence).
However this general assumption has been reinforced into a dogma because present day academic historians (and pre-historians) are particularly anxious to distance themselves from their 18th and 19th century predecessors, and 20th century nutters, who supposed that these Classical Druids built Stonehenge.
Our position is 'What is is what was'. If Druids were the intelligentsia of Britain (and Gaul) when the Classical writers were writing then it is reasonable to assume that the Druid tradition was responsible for pre-Classical achievements in Britain and Gaul. So whether 'the Druids' built Stonehenge et al is, for us, an open question.
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Hatty
Site Admin
In: Berkshire
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There is no reason to link Druids with stone monuments unless you see megaliths as some kind of ritualistic temples. If, as we discussed somewhere or other, the menhirs are navigational markers, then the Phoenicians or middle eastern sea-farers are far more plausible monument-builders.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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| wizard wrote: | | For example; Old Irish draoiocht (druid) � O.E. treo hwit = drao iocht = druid. |
I would also point out that this demonstrates only that the English word, "Druid" is present also in "Old Irish".
That does not demonstrate that whatever creature it was that both peoples called a "druid" resembled in any way the creature described in the (supposed) writings of Julius Ceasar (which, yes, I have long believed to be fake).
On the other hand, it is possible that a fake document contains truth -- if the writer knew something about Druids we have forgotten and incorporated this in his document. I think it more likely he incorporated popular contemporary beliefs about these druids -- which may have never been any less fantastical than "wizards" and "sorcerers".
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| There is no reason to link Druids with stone monuments unless you see megaliths as some kind of ritualistic temples. |
There is no reason whatsoever to link Druids with ritualistic temples. In so far as Druids are linked with temples at all, it is with natural oak-grove ones not stone ones. The Classical sources make it perfectly clear that Druids were an intelligentsia, whether or not this embraces 'ritual' duties.
| Phoenicians or middle eastern sea-farers are far more plausible monument-builders. |
But the whole point of the it's-just-a-transport-network school of thought (if I may call myself a school of thought) is that these are not monuments. They are common-or-garden transport markers. Since this requires a high degree of surveying/ calendrical/ astronomical skills I see no reason why the Druids (or their cultural predecessors) should not be responsible.
I agree there are some (but not overwhelming) reasons to place the originators of Megalithia in the Mediterranean but there is no reason (therefore) to dismiss the Druids, since these might have themselves either been of Mediterranean origin or be the British version of an originally Mediterranean outfit.
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