View previous topic :: View next topic |
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
|
|
|
|
Applied epistemology applied in an everyday situation.
------------------
In the Pub with M J Harper Dec 26, 2024
What’s he on about this time?
Bloke in Pub: What a load of old bollocks.
M J Harper: Now that is interesting.
BIP: What is?
MJH: I’ve just presented you with a complex idea, completely new to you, yet you were able to reject it in a matter of seconds.
BIP: So?
MJH: That can only mean one of three things.
BIP: Go on.
MJH: One: the idea is so bad anyone can see it’s rubbish straight off. Apart from me. That is profoundly depressing. If everyone can instantly see the flaws except me, it would make me pretty much the dumbest person around.
BIP: Out of the mouths…
MJH: Two: you have such a remarkable brain you can understand, process and reject a complex and unfamiliar idea in seconds. That’s pretty unheard of. OK, my idea might be dumb, which is a nuisance, but your reaction time means one of the world’s sharpest intellects drinks in my local. Not to be sniffed at in this day and age.
BIP: And the third?
MJH: Three: you are an ordinary person behaving in the usual way when confronted with a new and complex idea. It is the brain’s way of keeping its neural networks stable. It has to reject new and complex ideas instantly because choosing between them would require considering all new ideas. Not even my brain is capable of that.
BIP: What a load of old bollocks.
MJH: Now that is interesting.
BIP: What is?
MJH: You have just been presented with three alternatives of a complex nature about something that is completely new to you, yet you were able to reject all three in a matter of seconds. That can only mean one of three things:
One: the three alternatives were so bad anybody could see they were absurd without breaking sweat. Apart from me. I thought they were pretty near definitive. Ergo, I am one of the dumbest people around.
Two: you have such a remarkable brain you could tell the alternatives were absurd in seconds even though an ordinary person, in this case me, thought they were perfectly reasonable and are in fact part of an established procedure. Ergo, I have bought a drink for one of the greatest minds on the planet.
Three: you are an ordinary person behaving in the usual way when presented with a novel choice. See above. Ergo, the search goes on.
BIP: What a load of old bollocks. Can I get you another?
MJH: Please. In a straight glass if you wouldn’t mind.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
Mick Harper wrote: | The Pepys Diaries Officially written by Samuel Pepys, 1660–1669, in London
I called this one first. Although, through an entirely different line of reasoning. A line of reasoning that is more....tenuous than your own. |
I should like to hear more about this. It is lost in the mists of time. |
My investigation and methods are not as rigorous as your own and, because of this, I don't really claim to have determined it first. For what it's worth....
I have come to the shocking conclusion that the history of Britain as we know it, between 1718 and 1788, is just made up: In fact, it is a duplication of much of the 70 years of history from 1788 onward. Of course; I don't expect anyone else to believe this. Even I hardly do.
Being familiar with Pepys Diaries, I had no choice then but to further conclude that they were a complete forgery.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
The New Testament Officially written by various hands, 1st century AD, in the Middle East
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?!?! |
Yes, I am satisfied, the actual fuck. |
What are your thoughts on its origins? I have been giving this question much thought for decades now. You may be familiar with some of my thinking.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
It is an affectation of the "wise liberal" (of which you have been one so long as I have known you) |
Only right-wing people think I am a liberal of any sort. They make me vomit. Liberals, I mean. Though right-wing people do too. |
"Wise-Liberal" is a term of my own coinage. I think suits the phenomenon well. It is the term I devised to describe a class of people I have repeatedly encountered: Intellectuals who see the folly of the left-wing nonsense they once embraced but, nevertheless, continue to identify with the intellectual class, wasting their lives in an effort enlighten their tribe while casting aspersions on the reflexive conservatism of the common people.
Conservatives simply have a much better theory-of-mind for their opponents and can even express empathy for the opposing perspective. This phenomenon is virtually unknown to on the Left. |
There is something to this. Left and Right are not mirror images.
|
You are growing in wisdom.
Indeed; it is a characteristic of the wise liberal to assume that Left and Right are mirror images of one another. I shall perhaps soon require a new classification for you.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
Mick Harper wrote: | In the Pub with M J Harper Dec 26, 2024
What’s he on about this time?
Bloke in Pub: What a load of old bollocks.
M J Harper: Now that is interesting.
BIP: What is?
MJH: I’ve just presented you with a complex idea, completely new to you, yet you were able to reject it in a matter of seconds. |
I have had this exact conversation too many times to enumerate.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
|
|
|
|
The New Testament Officially written by various hands, 1st century AD, in the Middle East
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?!?!
Yes, I am satisfied, the actual fuck.
What are your thoughts on its origins? I have been giving this question much thought for decades now. You may be familiar with some of my thinking. |
I can't say I am (or I have suppressed it if I am) but my own route there was via the discovery, set out in RevHist, that there is no evidence of Christianity before 1000 AD. Hence the New Testament was written after that date. The why's and wherefore's are still under construction.
It is an affectation of the "wise liberal" (of which you have been one so long as I have known you)
Only right-wing people think I am a liberal of any sort. They make me vomit. Liberals, I mean. Though right-wing people do too.
"Wise-Liberal" is a term of my own coinage. I think suits the phenomenon well. It is the term I devised to describe a class of people I have repeatedly encountered: Intellectuals who see the folly of the left-wing nonsense they once embraced but, nevertheless, continue to identify with the intellectual class, wasting their lives in an effort enlighten their tribe while casting aspersions on the reflexive conservatism of the common people. |
This sounds quite a good wheeze in its own right but you may be making an understandable error in my case. I do not bother to go to all the trouble of casting off liberal shibboleths that I happen to have inherited from my upbringing just for the sake of it. I shuck them off as the need arises. Just because I happen to mouth one of them in your presence does not make me a liberal. Even though normally mouthing a single liberal sentiment is enough to identify an individual as a died in the wool liberal.
Conservatives simply have a much better theory-of-mind for their opponents and can even express empathy for the opposing perspective. This phenomenon is virtually unknown to on the Left. |
I have never noticed this propensity on the part of conservatives. They do have a marked advantage in that they are defending something real--the status quo--and which is worth defending.
There is something to this. Left and Right are not mirror images.
You are growing in wisdom. |
I enunciated it all, if you were paying attention, back in the days of Quest.
Indeed; it is a characteristic of the wise liberal to assume that Left and Right are mirror images of one another. I shall perhaps soon require a new classification for you. |
I sincerely hope not. If I can be classified I am lost.
MJH: I’ve just presented you with a complex idea, completely new to you, yet you were able to reject it in a matter of seconds.
I have had this exact conversation too many times to enumerate. |
Yes, but you only now realise it. Don't play Old Hat Syndrome with me, young man.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
|
|
|
|
A companion piece to the previous
--------------
I believe for every drop of rain that falls
a flower grows Jan 2, 2025
In a previous story https://medium.com/p/65fdf9c97ef9 I explained why, when presented with a novel idea, your first reaction is to reject it. Since the human brain does not have a holding store for ‘new ideas, rejected, but worth revisiting at leisure’ that is the end of the matter.
It is why everything you believe is the same as everything your friends and acquaintances believe. Pretty much. |
For you, this is not necessarily a satisfactory position. One of the things you believe is that you have chosen those beliefs after mature consideration and would change them, if necessary, in the light of new information. Since that hasn’t happened in living memory, you have the following choices
1. Reject the idea 'everyone you know believes all the same things you believe'. Since they do (after making all due allowances) this is not possible.
2. Carefully ignore the fact that everyone you know believes the same things you believe. Since I have just told you, this is not possible.
3. Assume all the things you believe 'happen to be true', and that therefore you and everyone you know is fully justified in believing them. Your brain says it’s (3) since it...
* would not retain anything known not to be true
* rejects new and contrary ideas automatically
* doesn’t have a holding store for considering doubtful cases
* has held the same beliefs long enough for contrary evidence to accrue
* is always in the company of people who believe the same things…
it doesn’t have a lot of choice. |
Now the only thing left is to account for all those people who believe things you don’t believe. But you have already done that. They are mad, bad and dangerous to know. Every single one of them. Phew. You thought for a moment…
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
Mick Harper wrote: | I can't say I am (or I have suppressed it if I am) but my own route there was via the discovery, set out in RevHist, that there is no evidence of Christianity before 1000 AD. Hence the New Testament was written after that date. The why's and wherefore's are still under construction. |
Once again; I've got there too. But I've a simpler solution to the problem; the events of the New Testament occurred around 1000AD. The book is not a forgery in that sense. It's the calendar that's wrong.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
I should add that the calendar and pseudo-history phenomenon also clears up all those anachronistic pre-Christian cults that somehow seem to be practicing Christianity in all but name (and all but Christ) but in the wrong time. My thinking is that, wherever one encounters persons in History who appear to be Christians, it is safe to assume they are---and if those persons are existing at a time they shouldn't be, it's the dating that's wrong.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
|
|
|
|
Ishmael wrote: | there is no evidence of Christianity before 1000 AD. Hence the New Testament was written after that date. The why's and wherefore's are still under construction.
Once again; I've got there too. But I've a simpler solution to the problem; the events of the New Testament occurred around 1000AD. The book is not a forgery in that sense. It's the calendar that's wrong. |
I agree that would be simpler. But also less revisionist if you are simply adding a nought and everything remains the same, only moved up a millennium. The critical factor is the relationship with the Roman Empire since that is the one thing we can establish from the archaeological evidence. The stratification allows us to avoid disputes about relative dates and the authenticity of the historical record.
My (working) assumption is that the Empire ended in the west c 400 AD (to adopt a relative date) and the Normans et al follow on more or less directly, thus eliminating the European Dark Age i.e. 400 - 1000 AD. A technique used in RevHist (and by others) when eliminating the Greek Dark Age of c 1200 - 600 BC.
If the New Testament is a Norman confection that would make it a forgery since the New Testament could not survive shorn of its Roman Empire trappings. Perhaps you could set out your timeline in this regard.
I should add that the calendar and pseudo-history phenomenon also clears up all those anachronistic pre-Christian cults that somehow seem to be practicing Christianity in all but name (and all but Christ) but in the wrong time. |
I do much the same though the way I proceed is to assume Norman Christianity is an amalgam of Roman and Judaic cults.
My thinking is that, wherever one encounters persons in History who appear to be Christians, it is safe to assume they are---and if those persons are existing at a time they shouldn't be, it's the dating that's wrong. |
Again I do much the same but rely on re-labelling and subtracting six hundred years where appropriate.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
The oldest complete copy of the New Testament is Codex Sinaiticus, a 4th-century Christian manuscript. The proven forger Constantine Simonides (1820–1890), who was well skilled in calligraphy claimed he had forged it, even writing to the Manchester Guardian in 1862 saying it was he.(does this constitute a AE red flag?) Ortho chooses not to beleive him.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
|
|
|
|
Here's some unsorted Hatty material that I must have used at some time. I have certainly denounced the Codex Sinaiticus in my time but I can't find where.
---------------
Wiki article on Sir Thomas P
Sir Thomas Phillipps, 1st Baronet (2 July 1792 – 6 February 1872), was an English antiquary and book collector who amassed the largest collection of manuscript material in the 19th century. He was an illegitimate son of a textile manufacturer and inherited a substantial estate, which he spent almost entirely on vellum manuscripts and, when out of funds, borrowed heavily to buy manuscripts, thereby putting his family deep into debt. Phillipps recorded in an early catalogue that his collection was instigated by reading various accounts of the destruction of valuable manuscripts. Such was his devotion that he acquired some 40,000 printed books and 60,000 manuscripts, arguably the largest collection a single individual has created, and coined the term "vello-maniac" to describe his obsession, which is more commonly termed bibliomania.
During his lifetime, Phillipps attempted to turn over his collection to the British nation and corresponded with the then-Chancellor of the Exchequer Disraeli in order that it should be acquired for the British Museum. Negotiations proved unsuccessful and, ultimately, the dispersal of his collection took over 100 years. Phillipps's will stipulated that his books should remain intact at Thirlestaine House, that no bookseller or stranger should rearrange them and that no Roman Catholic, especially his son-in-law James Halliwell, should be permitted to view them. In 1885, the Court of Chancery declared this too restrictive and thus made possible the sale of the library which Phillipps's grandson Thomas FitzRoy Fenwick supervised for the next fifty years.
Significant portions of the European material were sold to the national collections on the continent including the Royal Library, Berlin, the Royal Library of Belgium, and the Provincial Archives (:nl:Gemeentearchief) in Utrecht as well as the sale of outstanding individual items to the J. Pierpont Morgan and Henry E. Huntington libraries. By 1946, what was known as the "residue" was sold to London booksellers Phillip and Lionel Robinson for £100,000, though this part of the collection was uncatalogued and unexamined. The Robinsons endeavoured to sell these books through their own published catalogues and a number of Sotheby's sales. The final portion of the collection was sold by Christie's on 7 June 2006, lots 18–38. A five-volume history of the collection and its dispersal, Phillipps Studies, by A. N. L. Munby was published between 1951 and 1960.
It’s doubtful that the Ovid ‘missing first nine books’ would have been overlooked – plenty of time between 1946 and 1964 for a forger to produce them.
Thomas Phillips was the victim of a manuscript forger, Simonides
Most gullible of the forger's victims was Sir Thomas Phillips, whom the Grolier Club describes as “the greatest collector of mnauscripts the world has ever known.” Such was Sir Thomas's acquisitive zeal that he ignored the evidence until the very end.
Constantine Simonides (1820 – 1890) was Greek, and links nicely with the Mt Athos forgery centre
He spent several years of his youth from his nineteenth to his twenty-second year, in monasteries on Mount Athos, where he did his best to acquire knowledge and expertise in Greek manuscripts ... maybe his first forgeries, possibly practical exercises in palaeography at the very beginning, are to be dated to here and also his first purchases of Byzantine manuscripts with which he would start trading upon leaving the Holy Mountain. His privileged access to ancient parchments, which he could reuse imitating Byzantine palaeography, took him to Athens 1846-49 where he would try to sell his false manuscripts as if they were authentic; among other treasures he would offer fragments of the Gospels and Homeric poems. Putting forward as evidence his repeated stays at Mount Athos, Simonides claimed that he had found a large number of manuscripts in a secret store, including works by Homer and Hesiod, which he tried to pass off as authentic in Athens. There was, however, no agreement about their authenticity and he left the country. He arrived first to Istanbul around 1850 where he continued with his counterfeiting activity, trying to sell manuscripts to local antiquarians. Simonides then travelled to England, in 1853 where he sold some manuscripts to Sir Thomas Phillips and edited facsimiles of the Gospels whose originals he purported to date to a few years after Christ’s death.
Simonides was denounced several times starting in Istanbul by a German scholar, an expert in manuscripts, in 1853. Simonides purported to have found The Shepherd of Hermas on Mount Athos and to have taken six copies to Europe. His forgeries were sensationally successful. You get the picture.
Interesting article in Wiki
In 1854 and 1855 Simonides tried unsuccessfully to sell some manuscripts for the British Museum and the Bodleian Library. Thomas Phillipps was a less critical purchaser and bought for the Phillipps Library at Cheltenham some manuscripts.
On 13 September 1862, in an article of The Guardian, he claimed that he is the real author of the Codex Sinaiticus and that he wrote it in 1839.According to him it was "the one poor work of his youth". According to Simonides, he visited Sinai in 1852 and saw the codex. Henry Bradshaw, a scholar, didn't believe his claims
P,.S.
A.N.L. Munby
Munby worked in the antiquarian book trade with Bernard Quaritch, Limited (1935–37) and Sotheby & Company (1937–39, 1945–47). He became Librarian at King's College, Cambridge in 1947 and Fellow in 1948; he was J.P.R. Lyell Reader in Bibliography, University of Oxford (1962–63) and Sandars Reader in Bibliography, University of Cambridge (1969–70). He was elected President of the Bibliographical Society in 1974 and died during his term of office
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Ishmael

In: Toronto
|
|
|
|
Mick Harper wrote: | The critical factor is the relationship with the Roman Empire since that is the one thing we can establish from the archaeological evidence. |
I shall avoid pricking myself upon this thorn.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Mick Harper
Site Admin

In: London
|
|
|
|
Applied epistemology in action
--------------
Climate change: nothing to report January 5, 2025
New Year resolution: it’s old news rather than good news
We have now had long enough — fifty years — to be able to use normal historical and statistical methods to discern trends. They are
* A successful transition of world opinion from ‘there’s nothing to worry about’ to ‘there’s everything to worry about’
* A constant, even a mildly accelerating, implementation of programmes to address the problem
* A constant, even a mildly accelerating, exacerbation of the problem despite the implementation of the programmes
* Nothing new in prospect likely to radically alter this.
In short, we’re heading for the cliff because the actions that put us on this course remain greater than the efforts to alter course, and there is nothing on the horizon to suggest anything will change between now and the cliff.
So the least we can do is consider theoretically whether there is anything feasible that can be done in the time available. |
It would seem not. We have had fifty years experience and not only has the overall methodology—domestic and international exhortation — remained unchanged but there are no proposals either on the table or in the think tanks to try anything else. It has been fifty years of
‘Not working? More of the same then.’ |
That leaves the applied epistemologists. They may not be experts on climate change, but they know all about ‘careful ignoral’ and how to deal with it. The first step is obvious, even axiomatic
Give up on exhortation. That means everything from individuals dutifully putting rubbish in colour-coded bins to nation states meeting in solemn conclave to tell one another what they must do. |
Just stop doing it. Compulsion would clearly be better but is not available. The trend is all the other way. Stronger countries are more, not less, reluctant to force weaker countries to do the right thing, and all countries — to a greater or lesser extent — are answerable to citizens who won’t make sacrifices if they know they can avoid it without making any overall difference.
Which is always the case. |
[China’s advance may be sufficiently rapid to allow them to become a de facto world government and in a position to save the planet by mandation but that has to be set aside. The possibility is not only remote, it would be a ‘que sera’ situation and no business of applied epistemologists.]
That leaves actions that require neither exhortation nor compulsion. |
In other words policies that go with the grain, not against it. Or at any rate, not against it sufficiently that people en masse will take exception. They may not do it voluntarily but they will do it.
This is not quite the same as — but does often include — the so-called technical fixes. For example, the switch from fossil fuels to renewable energy has been continuous and successful. Within its own purview. It has not noticeably slowed down global warming but the point is it is being accomplished as a matter of practical politics.
However, like I say, applied epistemologists are not qualified to judge these things, much less propose them. All we can say is
1. Give up all those silly things you currently support and which have, for fifty years, proved to be be complacently futile.
2. Support other stuff which will probably go against your personal grain but not humanity’s in general.
Since you personally will qualify for a lifeboat when the time comes, you won’t bust a gut doing either. In fact, thanks to careful ignoral, you won’t even know you’re a selfish bastard. That’s the real problem: you think you’re a good person.
You probably are, but trying not to be a stupid person is more important at this particular moment in time. |
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
|
|
|
|
My (working) assumption is that the Empire ended in the west c 400 AD (to adopt a relative date) and the Normans et al follow on more or less directly, thus eliminating the European Dark Age i.e. 400 - 1000 AD. A technique used in RevHist (and by others) when eliminating the Greek Dark Age of c 1200 - 600 BC.
If the New Testament is a Norman confection that would make it a forgery since the New Testament could not survive shorn of its Roman Empire trappings. Perhaps you could set out your timeline in this regard. |
This is the period where Augustus (the State imperial cult) that lasted long after what is thought of by ortho as his date of death, (they have miscaculated his date of death) was replaced by Augustine of Canterbury. Augustus was replaced as a god and become a saint. Augustine of Canterbury was a Norman invention. Bede was a Norman invention. The Normans also invented, Caesars early invasions as part of this process of doing away with the worship of Augustus, statues of Augustus were defaced and destroyed, Roman buildings were replaced by Romanesque. A sucessful Norman Crusade took place in Britain.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|