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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Look in Arabia. Not Sinai.
Mind you. I happen to think Egypt wasn't in the middle-east, let alone Israel.
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Tilo Rebar
In: Sussex
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| Britanicus wrote: | | The Fables of Moses...and when this complete lack of evidence turned up they buried the report... |
Back in my early teens, I read a book called "The Bible as History". While I cannot recollect the archaeological evidence used by the author to 'prove' the historical facts, I can remember being totally unconvinced by any of it. Although, in fairness, I've never had much of a religious bent and so perhaps lacked the necessary belief needed to ensure the book made sense - bit like physics come to think of it.
So I'm not at all surprised about the lack of evidence for Moses existence and, indeed, I don't believe any of the biblical characters were real.
Same goes for all the other major religions, apart from scientology, where I do believe Lafayette Ronald Hubbard existed, but was in fact mad as a box of frogs, as are his followers.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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| but was in fact mad as a box of frogs, as are his followers. |
You mean, like my dad? What you always have to remember with these messianic movements is that they didn't start out that way. Ol' Ron was just a science fiction writer who fancied himself as a bit of an expert when it came to the human psyche. (Don't we all?) Being an SF writer he expressed himself a) rather well and b) in a highly imaginative-yet-believable way.
So well, that other people with a similar bent (eg my dad) took up the ideas (known then as 'dianetics') and a) kicked them around and b) started being mini-Rons via that very successful American capitalist model of the times, franchising.
As I can testify from personal experience, there was no particularly 'religious' dimension at this time, it was just a kind of assisted self-help programme that claimed to boost various personal well-being attributes. I cannot say whether it did or not -- I was very young and was 'processed' for a very short time -- though it is siginficant that I went on to become the Greatest Brain In The Known Universe but modest and well-balanced with it.
As with all franchise movements however, once the natural expansion of 'a good idea' was exhausted, the guys at the top (not including my dad) were obliged to turn to more exotic methods to continue generating gains.
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Britanicus
In: The West Country
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Hi there Boreades,
Regarding the Fables/Exodus of Moses.
Not so, the upper levels were according to Moses teeming with Jews, so funeral remains should have been numerous IF the population of Egypt was 40 to 50% Jewish as stated by Moses.
The results deem Moses and the Jews in Egypt to be just a fallacy and that is the real reason no-one can relate the time line of exodus into any period of Egyptian history and why other stories within the Old Testament Bible may need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Britanicus.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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| Britanicus wrote: |
Not so, the upper levels were according to Moses teeming with Jews, .. |
Forgive me, I've lost the plot. Can you remind me where we get that from? If that's the case, are these the same people that we're told escaped slavery in the Exodus? Confused I am.
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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It's fine, I've got the plot.
Moses is known in Egyptian records, first as Amenhotep IV then as Akhenaten who married twice. Once to Nerfetiti and then to Meri Amen (Miriam).
Moses and Aaron were the Egyptians that tried to introduce a monotheist religion into Egypt. The rest of the Egyptians didn't like it and kicked out Moses and Aaron, who headed east into Judea.
According to http://www.halexandria.org/dward922.htm :
Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten / Moses) ('Effective spirit of Aten') was the Pharaoh of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, who is especially noted for attempting to compel the Egyptian population in the monotheistic worship of Aten... although there are doubts as to how successful he was at this. He was born to Amenhotep III and his Chief Queen Tiye and was their younger son. Akhenaten was not originally designated as the successor to the throne until the lack of any other alternatives. Amenhotep III and his wife, Sitamun, for example, had failed to produce a male heir.
It is also reported that 'This line of high priestess of Egypt from Miriam (Mery Amon) onwards have names like Mary, even while in exile, through to Mary Magdalan. Joseph is an honorary title; "Father of the Lord" - given to anyone who is the father of someone who marries the High Priestess. i.e. into the royal line of Egypt.'
When the Israelites made their exodus from Egypt, their spiritual leader was not Moses, but Miriam -- a queen and high priestess of the Pharonic succession. In the Book of Jasher it explains that it was not Moses who was the spiritual leader of the tribes who left Egypt for Sinai; their spiritual leader and chief counsellor was Miriam, the half-sister of Moses who receives only passing mentions in the book of Exodus.
One daughter was called Merytaten who married Aaron (Smenkhkare) c.1361 BC
One of their children was a daughter, Scota, married to Niul of Scythia. Scota (or Scoti) reappears later in Irish legends of their origins.
The family trees:
Part 1
Part 2
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Boreades
In: finity and beyond
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My patience is wearing thin.
This is relevant to the Lichfield saga.
If you have not twigged yet, I blame it on the Big Bad Wolf destroying the breadcrumb trail I have been laying for you.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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A relative of Hatty's is writing a book that attempts to prove that Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV are one and the same person. If that helps.
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Mick Harper
Site Admin
In: London
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Yes, it's fairly obvious. Amenhotep III and his wife Tye converted to monotheism i.e. from the old Amun to the new Aten. They consequently adopted new throne names Akhenaten and Miriam, and eventually gave rise to the House of David, Jesus etc. Thus giving monotheism a powerful pedigree.
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Ishmael
In: Toronto
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Smenkhkare = Simon Magus?
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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Mars and Other War Gods
The biography of the Patriarch Jacob in the Old Testament is a reflection (or Hebrew retelling) of the Horus myths of Egypt. And whatever the source of these two stories is, they seem related to the Planet Mars (and various other myths and cosmological ideas about Mars)
Similarity 1 (all quotes from AI):
Jacob: has a famous vision of the Stairway or Ladder to Heaven. It is a vision without a clear reason in the story. Just sort of happens.
(Hebrew word for ladder is sullam) Horus: From the Pyramid Texts: "A ladder has been knotted together by Horus, face to face with his father Osiris", and call out dynamically: "Stand up, O Ladder of Horus!"
Mars: "In ancient Mesopotamian cosmology, the god Nergal—who was explicitly identified with the planet Mars—is famously described as ascending and descending a "stairway of heaven" (or celestial ladder) to travel between realms"
(the word for ladder is simmilat....I'd guess sullam and simmilat are just slight conjugation differences of a related root)
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Wile E. Coyote
In: Arizona
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Wiley has always beleived that Heaven=Haven
(Avon is according to ortho a early word meaning "river" so for them you have "River, Avon =River river...rather than safe havens along rivers... )
If correct Heaven=Haven are the same but represented across differing vertical and the horizontal intertpretaions of the world.
The vertical sees life as eternal, not bound by time or space. To the degree that we can be perceive this, time is circular, and our sense of space is universal. Everything is understood as inherently relational and already connected. Heaven.
The horizontal sees life as it is lived on earth in time and space. It defines our experience of time as chronological, and our sense of space as particular. It maps out the actions and inactions of this person, on this date, at this time, in relation to these people. (the attempt to find and build a safe city, nation, world) Haven
The ladder to heaven, is a vertical expression. Mars holds a circular time shield, with a spear pointing upward towards the sky, its the male gender symbol.
This spear is the start of your celestial stairway. The shield is planetary.
St Martin was the later expression of Mars. St Martin represents a later safe haven world view.
Beware this was generated by CI (coffee intelligence) not AI so I cheated......
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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Similarities 2: Mom-Assisted Political Intrigues
Jacob: Jacob famously tricks his father (Isaac) into giving to Jacob the older brother's (Esau's) inheritance.
- Esau is hairy, and described as "red" or "ruddy." Jacob puts a sheepskin over his own arm to fool his blind father into thinking he was Esau. Not believable, but okay.
- The sheepskin ruse Rebekah's idea, the boys' own mother, In the end, Jacob usurps brother , lending his new name, "Israel," to the Nation.
Hairy, red Esau then becomes the “Father of the Edomites.” Edom means "red," and the Edomites' home is Mount Seir. Seir means "hairy." These are Esau’s two defining traits.
Mount Seir is thoroughly mythological:
2. A Cosmic Storm-God Realm (Theophany)
In archaic Hebrew poetry, Mount Seir is not just a rocky hill range; it is the mythological staging ground for the cosmic arrival of God.
In the ancient Song of Deborah (Judges 5:4) and Deuteronomy 33:2, God is depicted as marching out from Seir and Edom.
When He does, the earth violently trembles, the heavens pour down water, and mountains melt. This heavily mirrors older Canaanite mythologies where storm gods (like Baal) dwell on sacred northern peaks and shake the earth when they go to war. |
So, Esau's descendants rule "A Cosmic Storm-God Realm"
Horus: Son of Osiris, who got into a decades-long succession fight with his uncle, Set.
"Uncle" not "brother," you say. Well:
| "In this primary cosmic family tree, Horus the Elder and Set are full brothers. Over centuries, the myths of Horus the Elder and Horus the Younger (the son of Osiris) heavily blended together, causing ancient writers to frequently refer to Set and Horus as brothers even when discussing the uncle-nephew narrative." |
Horus wins by trickery. In the most famous of the tricks, "The Salad Trap": | Isis (Horus's mother) cut off Horus's contaminated hand, threw it into the marsh, and then collected Horus's own semen. She snuck into Set's garden and spread Horus's semen over Set's favorite food—lettuce." Later, to prove who was the most potent, Horus magically made his own semen emerge from Set's head, humiliating Set. |
Osiris ( in the Underworld now) ruled in favor of Horus: "Horus was crowned the legitimate Pharaoh of unified Egypt, while Set was exiled or bound to Ra’s solar barge to serve as the god of thunder and storms.
Mars: Horus IS Mars:
Wikipedia:
| The planet was known by the ancient Egyptians as "Horus of the Horizon", then later Her Deshur ("?r Dšr"[), or "Horus the Red". |
(I realize it is Esau and not Jacob who is “red.” Horus and Set weren’t brothers either, but uncle and nephew. The telling and retelling scrambles the exact relationships. I think the constellation of traits and overlapping, specific elements is what matters)
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Pete Jones
Site Admin
In: Virginia
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| Wile E. Coyote wrote: | | Wiley has always beleived that Heaven=Haven |
Seems to be clearly the case
| (Avon is according to ortho a early word meaning "river" so for them you have "River, Avon =River river...rather than safe havens along rivers... ) |
I can see the logic.
| The vertical sees life as eternal, not bound by time or space. To the degree that we can be perceive this, time is circular, and our sense of space is universal. Everything is understood as inherently relational and already connected. Heaven. |
So "eternal life" in heaven is the theological literalization of a metaphysical concept? Or of the higher reality that we can't perceive due to our focus on the horizontal?
| (the attempt to find and build a safe city, nation, world) Haven |
Meaning the idea of "as above, so below" is valid. The building of temples that form connections to the cosmic world, etc. Pyramids, stupas, snake mounds are reflections of the cosmic landscape?
| The ladder to heaven, is a vertical expression. Mars holds a circular time shield, with a spear pointing upward towards the sky, its the male gender symbol. |
Mars ascending is a common theme (here's an AI summary):
| Mars as Harbinger of Conflict: Cultures from Babylon to China viewed the rising or "ascending" of the red planet as a powerful omen for war, destruction, and seismic change. |
| This spear is the start of your celestial stairway. The shield is planetary. |
I would say the spear is the cosmic thunderbolt, the weapon of the gods. I think it was literally lightning. I think all this stuff is originally literal, because I'm an Electric Universe kind of guy.
| St Martin was the later expression of Mars. St Martin represents a later safe haven world view. |
Odd to me that the god of war is associated with safety. Unless war is seen as salvation from someone else.
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